I was hoping one of our amazing Cervelo engineers could try and answer this one for me. This might be a bit of a hard one to answer but, since the only real difference between the S5 models is weight and carbon lay-up, is there anyway to come up with sort of a lay-up equivalently scale? What I mean is how would the different lay-ups on the S5 compare to those of Cervelo's previous bikes, like the SLC-SL, S2 and S3. For example, would it be safe to say that the standard S5's layup, is equivalent to maybe the S2s of the last few years, The S5 Team is equal to the S3s of the last few years, and the VWD's lay-up is beyond that the S3's was. I know this kind of seems like an odd ball question, but more than anything I'm trying to further understand why I would go from a standard S5 to the S5 team and pay 800 dollars more. I'm pretty set on the standard S5, but always interested in learning al that I can. Thanks guys

What I don't understand is how any of this info would help you -- say you were told that the standard layup is the same layup as that used in the S2.  And that the Team layup was that used in the R3SL.  What have you learned?  Totally different bikes, totally different tube shapes, totally different everything other than "the layup".  Let's take it further and say that you could know exactly what sheets of carbon were used in the standard/Team/VWD models.  Would that help any?  If Cervelo flat out said:  "The Team is better than the standard."  What is "better" anyway?  Better is only something you can determine for yourself.  The pros all ride different models for different personal reasons -- you too have the same options.  Buy the one that you like the best, for you.

Test ride the bikes and make the call that your wallet can answer.  If you can afford it and you want it and you can feel a difference while riding it...well, then it is worth it.  

Listen to Velorider, he may sound a touch harsh but it's the unvarnished truth.

It's understandable and easy to get sucked in by the hype other bike companies put spin on their "technology" (Hi-Mod this, 60K that, 45 tonne, OCLV2, etc etc.) but you don't really experience a layup when you ride. (Trying to picture how that might be possible, hmm.)

It's moreimportant *how* the materials are used than what thematerials are.

 You get a different fork as well with the Team than the standard.  Supposed to be a little lighter

 I will apologize for any perceived harshness -- none intended.  While I'm not known for being gentle, I will make it very clear that nearly everything I say in person or post online has a humorous slant to it or would show an obvious smile on my face.

I'm a nice guy who rides bikes fast. If Cervelo wants to charge more for different carbon, so be it -- I'll buy what I like based on what choices they offer and would recommend the same to anyone who's shopping.  Unless your rides are exclusively uphill at grades of 8% or more, the weight savings will probably never be worth the money spent.  But lighter will always cost more, and the general consesus is that higher pricing = better.

Like d_1234 said about High Modulous this and 60k that...would anyone want Low Modulous carbon? It might be the absolute best thing for your bike, but by name alone it would never fly in the marketing department.  Be wary of the "lighter is better" potential trap as it is an easy way to make your wallet a lot lighter.  And that, my friend, is not better.

Agreed.

 Plus I feel another, possibly more important factor than whether it is high modulous, oclv etc, is how much r&d is put into the frame.  It's one thing to rely on a legacy of past riders and their performances, it's another thing entirely to accept those past successes and push the envelope further.  I've stated this before on other threads, but one of the reasons I went with Cervelo, even though I have a family member who owns a Trek concept store, is that I wanted something that was new and state of the art (so to speak).  In 2006 that would have described my Madone, but I don't think I could comfortably say that now about them.  Cervelo and Specialized with the McLaren Venge seem to be at the apex of making fast bikes even faster through research & design.

The point ist that even the lighter and lightest frames run all tests accomplished by Cervélo, so the price is not for a lighter frame only. But on the other side you get an enormous fast frame less expensive and only half of a water bottle heavier. oRo oSo >>

When it comes to weight, remember it is always easier and cheaper for most people to loose 100G of fat than it is for a bike to loose 100G ;)

No.... No more pies for me then??? How am I suppose to fuel up for the ride???

trihard:

No.... No more pies for me then??? How am I suppose to fuel up for the ride???

The ultimate training advice >> eat a lot and ride a lot >> have fun with both >>

Hi Edwin,

Good questions. You're right there is no simple equivalency between R-series lay ups and S-series. Since shape drives so much of a tube's structural properties (see the "Materials and Shapes" Technical Presentations at http://cervelo.com/en_us/engineering/tech-presentations/ ), the layups end up different enough that they're hard to compare directly.

That said, there are still some overall principles (for example, SmartwallTM works in any frame shape), and Cervelo owners always get the "free" technology in every Cervelo (through Cervelo's intense engineering approach and long experience). By "free" I mean once we we've learned, it doesn't cost any extra for us to cut the prepreg in a particular (slightly different) direction, or lay the preforms in a particular (slightly different) position. The reason this is different with Cervelo is that very few other companies put as much emphasis on engineering analysis and testing as we do, as the existence of our Project California attests. Every Cervelo model has all the lessons we've learned applied to it to maximise performance; we never "dumb down" a model just to reach a price point. Once the knowledge exists, why would we do it any differently?

That said, when you upgrade from, say, S5 to S5 Team, you do pay for a better bike. The frame and fork are both upgraded in the S5 Team, through the traditional Cervelo engineering refinement process of selecting frame and fork materials and tuning the lay up to save weight. Since the S5 Team's project mission included the requirement to match the stiffness of the heavier S5, naturally that means we have to use slightly more expensive materials and techniques.

We know that for some riders, saving 80 grams isn't worth the increase in price, and that's okay since "worth it" is defined by you, not us. We just provide the options for those who decide it's worth it - for them. (Secretly I love the less expensive S5, since it has all the aerodynamic properties that make any S5 so fast, but saves enough money that some owners could consider a wheel upgrade, etc.)

Cheers,

Damon, Thank you so much for your time and response. Little things like this are why I hold Cervelo in such high esteem. and why my last bike was and next bike will be Cervelos. I actually took an S5 Team for a 90 minute test ride on Friday and I was blown away. It accelerated as well as R3sls I rode for and it was ........... DAMN FAST. The other thing I came away with was that I really can't justify forgoing the S5 for the Team edition. The Team was such a great bike that I doubt their would be enough difference going down to the S5 standard. Also Damon it was great to get a little insight as to the methods and the "project mission" of the S5 team and understand a little better why it exists in the first place. Thanks again. Cervelo lifer Edwin Fabre

Damon - Will there ever be an opportunity for someone with the base model S5 to purchase the Team fork, but with the S5 paint scheme?

sausskross:

trihard:

No.... No more pies for me then??? How am I suppose to fuel up for the ride???

The ultimate training advice >> eat a lot and ride a lot >> have fun with both >>

If only it were that easy!

cawright1375:

sausskross:

trihard:

No.... No more pies for me then??? How am I suppose to fuel up for the ride???

The ultimate training advice >> eat a lot and ride a lot >> have fun with both >>

If only it were that easy!

I know, spaghetti with eggs at breakfast is hard, very hard :-)