I'm saving up right now to buy a new road bike this winter.  With Felt's new AR bike line coming, and word that Cervelo may make some modifications to the Soloist (see Javier Gomez's Olympic bike), which is going to be the better bike?  I know this is a Cervelo forum, but does anyone know if Cervelo has some tricks up their sleeve to get Felt?

equ1nt1s:

 I'm saving up right now to buy a new road bike this winter.  With Felt's new AR bike line coming, and word that Cervelo may make some modifications to the Soloist (see Javier Gomez's Olympic bike), which is going to be the better bike?  I know this is a Cervelo forum, but does anyone know if Cervelo has some tricks up their sleeve to get Felt?

Its all speculation on the redesign and many have said its only for the top of the line SLC SL. Felt AR is a great looking bike also you can't go wrong with either but wait till after the bike show in October to find out any news.

equ1nt1s:

 I'm saving up right now to buy a new road bike this winter.  With Felt's new AR bike line coming, and word that Cervelo may make some modifications to the Soloist (see Javier Gomez's Olympic bike), which is going to be the better bike?  I know this is a Cervelo forum, but does anyone know if Cervelo has some tricks up their sleeve to get Felt?

Gomez's bike sure is a beauty

I think it's great more companies like Felt are embracing aerodynamics in road frames, bucking the trend of fatter tubes to shave on order 0.2% of total mass while costing on order 2% or more total wind power.  The issue to me between the Felt and the Cervelo is primarily geometry.  The small Felts have quite steep seat tubes, which suits me, as I prefer a very small set-back, while the Cervelos stick with 73 degrees to the small frames, which doesn't work as well for me, even with a zero set-back post.  But for you, maybe the Cervelo geometry works better.  As far as I know, only the 56 cm AR has been shown, however, so we'll need to wait to see what they have in the smaller geometry.

I find it curious the Cervelo doesn' t have the filled-in seat tube they basically pioneered in their time trial frames, a feature which the first generation Trek Madrone brought to road frames (not the first, but the most popular, I think).  The Felt AR has this design, as well.

Another issue may be the paint.  I personally suspect paint mass is a big chunk of the mass difference in the Cervelo SL frames.  I'd like to see the Felt AR available with clearcoat only, perhaps with some relatively modest trim.  I also think naked carbon looks good.  So far, all we've seen is the Slipstream team frame.

djconnel:

I find it curious the Cervelo doesn' t have the filled-in seat tube they basically pioneered in their time trial frames, a feature which the first generation Trek Madrone brought to road frames (not the first, but the most popular, I think).  The Felt AR has this design, as well.

On the AR there is actually a significant gap between the seat tube wheel-cutout and the wheel itself.  This gap presents a problem because it intrupts what could be a continous surface for the wind to follow, therefore causing drag.  I've read somewhere (either a Gerard post on slow twitch or in Cervelo literature) that in order for a cut out to be truly effective it must follow the wheel very closly - a few millimeters difference at most. You'll notice this feature on both the P3C and the P2C.  I have no idea what's preventing Cervelo from making something like the P2C in road geometry - prehaps a UCI rule? My point is while the seat tube on the AR might look cool and aero, it may not be as beneficial as it looks.  It's very hard to judge the aero dynamic properties of a frame just by looking at it. Also of note, the trailing edge of down tube on the DA is not as sharp as the down tube of on any Cervelo Solist/P series frame.

Yet the 2009 Look 596 was designed with the claim that a gap is actually beneficial.  Of course, the Cervelo time trial frames have a record matched perhaps only by the Treks, and the Look was further designed with a kink in the top tube which was admittedly purely for cosmetic differentiation

ppruett:

On the AR there is actually a significant gap between the seat tube wheel-cutout and the wheel itself.  This gap presents a problem because it intrupts what could be a continous surface for the wind to follow, therefore causing drag.  I've read somewhere (either a Gerard post on slow twitch or in Cervelo literature) that in order for a cut out to be truly effective it must follow the wheel very closly - a few millimeters difference at most. You'll notice this feature on both the P3C and the P2C.  I have no idea what's preventing Cervelo from making something like the P2C in road geometry - prehaps a UCI rule?

 Perhaps the reason is that to get the spacing just right (and remember that it vary according to what tyre you use, if the tolerance is that tight) they would need to use horizontal dropouts with screw adjustments.
 

Basically a road frame is going to have a certain amount of clearance between the tire and the seat tube.  The location of this clearance is well-defined: where the seat tube is tangential to the tire circle.  There's no issue with extending this clearance over a greater angle, no reduction in flexibility of tire choice.  But you may be right: perhaps the aerodynamic benefit for negative certain tire radii.  Cervelo's put in plenty of time in wind tunnels.  But so has Felt.  Two companies I trust, two different designs.

 I'm quite interested in any additional info on these frames.  Do you have graphics for the AR2?  Any info on geometry?  Will it match the geometry of the F1, for example?

 Maybe the space is there to accomodate the rear brake mounting bolt?

if can offord it... the new cervelo S3 is now out.  Both great bikes though

I spoke to a reputable cycle journalist today who informed me that he had been given a quoted frame weight for the Felt AR of somewhere in the reigion of 1200g. That's a fair chunk more than the S3 which I believe Cervelo claim to be in the reigion of 900g - with the heavy white paint :)

 Has anyone seen any official printed weights from Felt regarding the AR?