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Soloist Team front end wobble

Last post 08-17-2009 6:57 AM by JohnMA. 27 replies.
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  • 11-01-2007 12:51 AM In reply to

    • pr0230
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 11-01-2007
    • Posts 1

    Re: Soloist Team front end wobble

    New on this forum, but not new to Speed wobble...  The first large post is very accurate in what is speed wobble ...  here is what to test for and how to determine if your bike is prone to speed wobble... 

    First size does not matter , I have ridden 61's and now a 57...  Each has speed wobble...  THE TEST...  Ride your bike ... slow speed ... put your hands on the drops or hoods...  Now try to push your handle bars left and right.... do not turn your handle bars , ride straight.... Pushing your handle bars left and right , REPEADITLY will give you a sense of what the LATERAL stiffness of your head TUBE is.... If you bike feels springy then your bike will have speed wobble...  A bike that is designed with a Flatten (aero) down tube ( Soloist) will be more prone to speed wobble...  A tube that is round, square or diamond (triangular - fuji newest ) will have more head tube latteral stiffness....  weight of the bike , heavier bikes will have more latteral stiffness... Lighter bikes will be more prone to wobble....

    What causes the wobble - You do...  you get firghtened and stiffen up ... A brief shot of addrenalin will cause you to jolt and voila , speed whobble...

    Prevention - Biggest thing that will help is RELAX...  next if you have a regular frame (not compact) clamp your knees to the top tube...If you have a compact , your knees will be above the top tube and will probably not be able to clamp... BTW - in the ABOVE test..  Rock your handle bars from side to side with your knees clamped.... Harder to do .... Right...  Now your getting it....

    In a descent, Second thing is relaxing ,  bend your elbows ,  do NOT straight arm your grip on the handle bars as this will transfer your jolt to the handle bars....

    Third, relax your grip on the handel bars to a light grip and NOT a white knuckle , panic grip....

    You need to practice a "known hill"  with the relax method.... Eventually you will wonder , how did I start that wobble again??? 

    I watched a show about flying an airplane... And the pilot said that a plane wants to fly ... to prove the point he distressed the plane with a manover and then took his hands off the controls.... the plane eventually straightened itself out and was flying hands off.....

    The point is , in a descent, you need to let the bike fly thru the descent... you and the bike need to be fluid.... 

    Now,  knowing you have a springy head tube , will let you control the bike... I would recommend you sell it and buy a bike that is more latterally stable at the head tube....

    Some bikes that are unstable ... Airborne Blackbird,  Lightspeed Ciena, Cervelo Soloist... and I have heard stories about pre 2007 orbea orcas... and others...

    My most stable was a fuji newest... and BMC SL01...

    My next bike will be a  Cervelo R3SL ...   

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

  • 11-02-2007 2:06 AM In reply to

    • TallDave
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 09-08-2007
    • Pasadena, CA
    • Posts 18

    Re: Soloist Team front end wobble

    Well, as fate would have it.... I had my 2nd wobble experience tonight.   Coming down a hill, not very fast, maybe high 20s, in a turn, braking both front and rear lightly, wobble started.     This time I knew what it was and I was able to get my knee onto the top tube of 61cm Soloist Team.   I guess its time to buy a torque wrench and check if my headset is maybe too tight.   I ride with a 13cm stem and my seatpost in the forward position, saddle all the way back.   So, quite possibly, I have too much weight over the front.   The first wobble experience had the same stem but the seatpost was normal/back and the saddle was mounted in the middle of the rails.

     

  • 11-02-2007 6:23 AM In reply to

    Re: Soloist Team front end wobble

    TallDave:

    braking both front and rear lightly, wobble started.    

    Interesting. Don't suppose you happened to notice whether the wobble stopped when you came off the brakes, did you (I know, the middle of a speed wobble is not the best place to conduct calmly thought out experiments!). I ask because I wonder this: if your wobble started when you braked, perhaps your calipers are uneven, and are pushing the top of the wheel to the left or right as you brake, putting the wheel marginally off-axis. A long shot, I know.  

    TallDave:

    I ride with a 13cm stem and my seatpost in the forward position, saddle all the way back.  

     

    Don't get this. Why put your seatpost in the forward position, then push the saddle all the way back. Can't you get the same position without flipping the seatpost?  

  • 11-02-2007 11:10 AM In reply to

    • TallDave
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 09-08-2007
    • Pasadena, CA
    • Posts 18

    Re: Soloist Team front end wobble

    That's actually a pretty good thought on the brakes.   I had adjusted the front calipers to be more toe-in just hours before the ride.   I was actually pretty calm while the wobble was happening, I lessened up on the brakes some but wobble was increasing.   When i put knee to top tube wobble stopped and I was able to continue rolling along.   My friend was behind me and thought I was doing some kind of prank at first, he had never seen speed wobble.   All in all, wobble was about 4 seconds long (guessing).   I'll measure my calipers to make sure they are accurate, thanks.<br><br> 

     

    I was professionally fitted in mid-Sept. and he was thinking I could do with a shorter top tube.   Having a more forward position adds watts for me and better gets my knee over foot.  I get an extra cm by having the seatpost flipped and come TT time, I dont need the extra seatpost head-saddle arrangement, I just throw the saddle all the way forward.  Done.  Thats the theory anyway.   I do get more power and can still take crit corners at speed so I've kept it.<br>

    I'm all legs, 6-5 with the torso of someone who is 6-0.  I dont think the Soloist is perfect for me size wise, but I'm in love with the aero advantage, and it works for the most part.   I can do 80 mile rides without body pain. 

  • 11-02-2007 5:25 PM In reply to

    • Bert62
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 11-02-2007
    • Posts 1

    Re: Soloist Team front end wobble

    I have been having this problem off and on for about 2 years now and am really tired of it.  I have done a lot of reading from various sources and this site actually had the best information.  I bought a Sampson Silverton Ti  frame road bike back in 2001 to do my first Ironman.  It rode smooth, decended great, never a problem.  Then in 2005 I was riding down a hill near a rock quarry when I went to bleed a bit of speed off before hitting a rough patch by tapping my brakes and the wobble started.  Scared the living ---- out of me, but got the bike stopped.  I went to my bike shop and we replaced both wheels with Rolf Vectors. (They were profile S90 and the rear casting that held the spokes was cracked).  Still happened.  Bought a new fork.  Nothing.  Bought a new Kestral Talon SL and by that time I was so timid going down hills I would not get over 25 mph.  I never had a problm with the Talon, but wrecked the Talon and am now back on the Sampson.  Any perturbation will send it into a wobble over 25-30mph.  The Rolfs don't help on a windy day because the wind will catch the front wheel and here we go again.  The previous posts that said to relax is right on.  Once you tense up, your muscles send a vibration down the arms and into the bars with a different perturbation.  I looked at Cervelo before buying the Talon, but now am back. 

  • 04-16-2008 3:16 PM In reply to

    which headset type ?

    hi all.

    i think the front end of the soloist team is very very nervous. i had cheap and light alu race bikes that are more stable.

    i wanna try to change the headset, though its new:

     

    WHICH HEADSET TYPE do i need ? can you give me the best headset for the soloist ? is it fsa is2 ? or which one is reliable?

    thanks a lot cervellil, swiss 

  • 04-16-2008 3:53 PM In reply to

    Re: which headset type ?

    i just need to know if the SOLOIST TEAM has 36/45 or 45/45 integrated headset.. 

  • 04-18-2008 12:35 PM In reply to

    • YDI
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 12-03-2007
    • Posts 9

    Re: Soloist Team front end wobble

    A wobble is a vibration like when you pinch a guitar cord. It vibrates because of 2 things: the cord is attached to both ends and there is a tension applied to it; a loose cord would not vibrate at all. Where am I going with this? Aren't we speaking about bikes? (Hang on I’m getting there). Well you can transpose this to a bike. The string is the bike (frame and rider) and the attachment points are the contact points between the wheels and pavement. To stop the vibration, you must either loosen up the string or remove one or both attachment point. So going relax on the bike is like removing tension on the string and would be one way to stop the vibration. The other one is to raise one of the wheel in the air (either front or back will work, but I never personally did it...). Do you know anyone who can do a wheelie or stoppie in a speed wobble? That would be great on Youtube....

    What is most intriguing in this case is that usually a vibration dampens with time. So what forces are increasing the amplitude of the vibration? Possible answers abound and it is more than likely that the gyroscopic forces of the wheels have something to do with this. A gyroscopic force (something that spins at high speed) will resist any force you try to apply to it. You can test this by taking a bike wheel off your bike, make it spin reasonably fast while holding the quick release and then trying to move it sideways. The wheel will resist the movement and try to turn. The process that induces the vibration would be something like:
    1. The bike goes out of straight line on one side for whatever reason: wind, bump, rider input, etc.
    2. The gyroscopic force of the wheels push it back (maybe just the front wheel, maybe the back one, who knows).
    3. The momentum makes it go to the other side.
    4. Go to step 2.
    There you go dancing like in freaking stroboscopic tune!

    Of course the bike frame/geometry must be “in tune” for this to work. Some conclusions we can make also are that a light frame will vibrate faster than a heavy one. And lighter wheels may be a way to reduce this since the gyroscopic forces will be reduced.

    It would be great if we could rig some bikes with stress sensors and make them speed wobble. This way we could see from where the forces that induce a wobble come from and have a better understanding of the process (first step to solve it!).

    Yvan

    Faster than most slow guys!

  • 04-21-2008 10:57 AM In reply to

    Re: Soloist Team front end wobble

    hi have to confirm the bad steering tube of the soloist team.

    no speed whobble, but when i give some power to the pedals (over 400 watts) the steering/handlebar goes "left-right"  when not holding it- no other bike has that problem.

     

    magazin "tour" from germany tested the soloist team, and it has the worst "driving-stablity" of all tested bikes.

    only 68 nm° in the steering tube. (average is 90) - even the worst frame have better performance there.

    waiting for an official answer from CERVELO.

  • 08-16-2009 9:01 AM In reply to

    • MDL
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 10-14-2008
    • Posts 23

    Re: Soloist Team front end wobble

    Sorry for starting this thread up again but the front end wobble just happened to me today for the second time. I have been riding my 08 SLT since April with no problems descending up until a couple of weeks ago when it happened on a hill near to where I live but it wasn't too bad. Today when it happened on the same hill it was so violent I thought I was going to crash. After the first time I read this thread & checked that the headset was OK. I read about relaxing on descents but it isn't easy in the middle of a speed wobble & anyway I have been down this hill many times on my other bike (04 Cannondale R500) and have never have this happen to me before. I really like the SLT but is this a problem with the frame? Also both times it happened there was a 20-25 MPH sidewind at the time does this make a difference?

    Thanks in advance for any replies

    08 Sliver/Red SLT

  • 08-16-2009 2:39 PM In reply to

    Re: Soloist Team front end wobble

     I have a 2002 SLT with Reynolds Ouzo pro fork 1" steerer, Rolf Vigor SL wheels, I road race and time trial with it.  On one of the TT courses I descend a hill reaching a maximum of 48/9 mph, sometimes with aero bars and forward seat position and other times with standard bars.  I have never had a hint of wobble.  It is a great bike, despite its age.  CSC used to race these bikes so I can't see there been too much of a problem with the frame, maybe just some combination of components or build variations.

     

     

     

     

     

  • 08-16-2009 2:56 PM In reply to

    Re: Soloist Team front end wobble

    Speed wobble happens with any frame, it's just a matter of the right conditions. It happens more often with flexible frames as their natural frequency is lower than that of stiffer frames. The SLT, great bike that it is, is alittle on the flexy side, so more likely to wobble at speed we ride.

    The best solution is a stiffer frame, but shorrt off that a stiffer "anything" (fork, wheel, tire pressure, whatever) might make the difference. So if you're thinking of changing anything on your bike go ahead, it just might push the natural frequency high enough you "never" find a wobble.

    Second best solution is to learn to deal with the wobble. Greg66 listed the two best ways to stop it immediately: lift your butt off saddle a cm or so, or clamp the top tube with your knees. LIfting your butt off works because your body weight serves as an inertial anchor for the wobble, and lifting it changes the natural frequency of your bike to a speed other than how fast your're riding at the moment. Clamping the top tube works because (1) your knees stiffen the bike so it temporarily has a higher natural frequency than the speed your going at the moment, and (2) connecting your body tissue to the bike adds damping. (The body is mostly water which is a great damper, as well as dampener, ha ha.)

    Don't worry about headsets, wheel dish, frame or fork alignment, etc.  I mean your bike should be well adjusted for other reasons, but that stuff doesn't affect wobble.

    For more info read Jobst Brandt's article on it:

    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/shimmy.html

    "

    Subject: Shimmy or Speed Wobble
    From: Jobst Brandt
    Date: June 25, 2004, revised February 25, 2005

    Shimmy, a spontaneous steering oscillation of the front wheel, usually occurs at a predictable speed when riding no-hands. The likelihood of shimmy is greatest when the only rider-to-bicycle contact is at the saddle and pedals. This position gives the least damping by hands, arms, and legs. When shimmy occurs on descents, with hands on the bars, it is highly disconcerting because the most common rider response, of gripping the bars firmly, only increases it.

    Shimmy is not related to frame alignment or loose bearings, as is often claimed. Shimmy results from dynamics of front wheel rotation, mass of the handlebars, elasticity of the frame, and where the rider contacts the bicycle. Both perfectly aligned bicycles and ones with wheels out of plane to one another shimmy nearly equally well. It is as likely with properly adjusted bearings as loose ones. The idea that shimmy is caused by loose head bearings or frame misalignment seems to have established currency by repetition, although there is no evidence to link these defects with shimmy.

    Bicycle shimmy is the lateral oscillation of the head tube about the road contact point of the front wheel and depends largely on frame geometry and the elasticity of the top and down tubes. It is driven by gyroscopic forces of the front wheel, making it largely speed dependent. It cannot be fixed by adjustments because it is inherent to the geometry and elasticity of the bicycle frame. The longer the frame and the higher the saddle, the greater the tendency to shimmy, other things being equal. Weight distribution also has no effect on shimmy although where that weight contacts the frame does. Bicycle shimmy is unchanged when riding no-hands, whether leaning forward or backward.

    Shimmy requires a spring and a mass about which to oscillate and these are furnished by the frame and seated rider. Unloading the saddle (without standing up) will stop shimmy. Pedaling or rough road will also reduce the tendency to shimmy. In contrast, coasting no-hands downhill on a smooth road at more than 20mph with the cranks vertical seems to be the most shimmy prone condition.

    When coasting no-hands, laying one leg against the top tube is the most common way to inhibit shimmy and also one of the most common ways to coast no-hands. Compliant tread of knobby tires usually have sufficient squirming damping to suppress shimmy. Weight of the handlebar and its extension from of the steering axis also affects shimmy.

    Shimmy is caused by the gyroscopic force of the front wheel whose tilt is roughly at right angles to the steering axis, making the wheel steer to the left when it leans to the left. This steering action twists the toptube and downtube, storing energy that both limits travel and causes a return swing. Trail (caster) of the fork acts on the wheel to limit these excursions and return them toward center.

    To feel the gyroscopic forces involved in bicycle shimmy, take a front wheel, holding it by its axle in both hands, and give it a spin. Manually steering it from side to side generates strong tilting forces always at right angles to the input. These forces sustain shimmy and are the motions one uses to make quick steering maneuvers while riding no-hands, shifting the hips laterally while firmly seated. The same effect as when wheeling a bicycle wile holding it only by the saddle.

    Shimmy that concerns riders the most occurs with hands firmly on the bars and it is rider generated by muscular effect whose natural response is the same as the shimmy frequency, about that of Human shivering. Descending in cold weather can be difficult for this reason. The rider's "death grip" only enhances the incidence of shimmy in this situation. Loosely holding the bars between thumb and forefinger is a way of avoiding shimmy when cold.

    "

  • 08-17-2009 6:57 AM In reply to

    Re: Soloist Team front end wobble

    i have an alpha q fork on my slt. it decends very steady. the fork that i have isn't aero. i wonder if that accounts for the extra stability, though i only ran it with the wolf cl for a short time. it's probably a fit issue or headset. i'd get it checked out. the S1 will feel different at first but you'll grow to LOVE it decending. be safe and have fun!

    '08 Ano SLT
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