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Front end wobble

Last post 12-03-2009 10:55 PM by zoomzoom8. 9 replies.
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  • 07-20-2009 5:28 AM

    Front end wobble

    I ride a 61 cm P3C 2006 with Hed Jet 60 ex wheels (ex are for the heavier rider), and Wolff TT forks.  I am 6' 9"tall and to fit the bike I have fitted a 130mm adjustable angle riser stem, with vision bars. I tend to only race 10 and 25 mile time trials on it. I often get when slowing down after a race a bit of front end shake/wobble. I have in the past attributed this to my arms being tired/numb, having been on the tri bars for a period of time. However for the first time the other day, I had severe and I mean scarey,  "I am going to crash" front end wobble under braking at the turn in a 10 mile event. I entered the turn fast, faster than normal, wind behind and within 15 seconds of my minute man, so chasing hard to catch him. When I came off the tri bars and grabbed the brakes, I couldn't control the bike. The Marshal was literally screaming at me, I don't know what he wanted me to do, I wasn't in control at this point in time. But I guess he was scared he was about to witness an accident, I have to admit so was I. Evenually I scrubbed off enough speed, to release the brakes, and get around the mini roundabout / Circle (I think that's what our American cousins call them) and head back up the course. I have checked over the bike and cannot find anything loose. Why am I getting such problems. Is it the P3C is so light and manouverable, that  with my size perched up high on it, causes instability? Or does anyone have any other ideas.

  • 07-20-2009 12:42 PM In reply to

    Re: Front end wobble

    you shouldnt be having these problems... im 6'5"  and ride a 61cm as well and i have no issues at any speed, including over 50mph.  My first guess would be the wheels.  try changing the wheels to see if this solves the problem.  You may be too far over the front wheel as well.

     

    Robert
    R5
    S3
    R3 SL
    Madone
  • 07-21-2009 4:44 AM In reply to

    Re: Front end wobble

    I didn't think I should be having this issue either. I have recently moved the seat forward to the front hole in the seat post, that would have pushed me further forward also. I can change the front wheel over to my wife's Mavic Kysirium's for a ride or two just to prove that out. Then maybe reinstal the original vision stem. So long as I can ride it, all scrunched up.

     

    Thanks for the reply.

  • 07-28-2009 1:45 PM In reply to

    Re: Front end wobble

    Years ago, I had a similar problem on a steel frame bike racing bike (remember those days?). Turns out the forks were bent from being used on a wind trainer that gripped the bike by the front forks. The mechanic had to bend the lugs on the fork back into alignment. I know carbon forks won't take a permanent bend... but try looking for some misalignment between the lugs and the wheel

  • 07-28-2009 8:07 PM In reply to

    Re: Front end wobble

    Sounds exactly like shimmy or speed wobble.

    All bikes (can) do it, but especially large riders since the taller frames (and longer steerers, stems, cranks, seat posts, etc.) are generally more fexible. 

     Since any part of the system can cause (or eliminate) wobble, go ahead and try changing whatever you were thinking of changing next and you just might tip the stiffness up past a threashold where you don't get it so often.

    But when you get a speed wobble the next time remember there are two easy ways to stop it:

    1. stand up (just a centeimeter or so, enough to shift weight from the sadde to pedals, or

    2. grip the top tube with your knees

    More info here:

    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/shimmy.html

    Subject: Shimmy or Speed Wobble
    From: Jobst Brandt
    Date: June 25, 2004, revised February 25, 2005

    Shimmy, a spontaneous steering oscillation of the front wheel, usually occurs at a predictable speed when riding no-hands. The likelihood of shimmy is greatest when the only rider-to-bicycle contact is at the saddle and pedals. This position gives the least damping by hands, arms, and legs. When shimmy occurs on descents, with hands on the bars, it is highly disconcerting because the most common rider response, of gripping the bars firmly, only increases it.

    Shimmy is not related to frame alignment or loose bearings, as is often claimed. Shimmy results from dynamics of front wheel rotation, mass of the handlebars, elasticity of the frame, and where the rider contacts the bicycle. Both perfectly aligned bicycles and ones with wheels out of plane to one another shimmy nearly equally well. It is as likely with properly adjusted bearings as loose ones. The idea that shimmy is caused by loose head bearings or frame misalignment seems to have established currency by repetition, although there is no evidence to link these defects with shimmy.

    Bicycle shimmy is the lateral oscillation of the head tube about the road contact point of the front wheel and depends largely on frame geometry and the elasticity of the top and down tubes. It is driven by gyroscopic forces of the front wheel, making it largely speed dependent. It cannot be fixed by adjustments because it is inherent to the geometry and elasticity of the bicycle frame. The longer the frame and the higher the saddle, the greater the tendency to shimmy, other things being equal. Weight distribution also has no effect on shimmy although where that weight contacts the frame does. Bicycle shimmy is unchanged when riding no-hands, whether leaning forward or backward.

    Shimmy requires a spring and a mass about which to oscillate and these are furnished by the frame and seated rider. Unloading the saddle (without standing up) will stop shimmy. Pedaling or rough road will also reduce the tendency to shimmy. In contrast, coasting no-hands downhill on a smooth road at more than 20mph with the cranks vertical seems to be the most shimmy prone condition.

    When coasting no-hands, laying one leg against the top tube is the most common way to inhibit shimmy and also one of the most common ways to coast no-hands. Compliant tread of knobby tires usually have sufficient squirming damping to suppress shimmy. Weight of the handlebar and its extension from of the steering axis also affects shimmy.

    Shimmy is caused by the gyroscopic force of the front wheel whose tilt is roughly at right angles to the steering axis, making the wheel steer to the left when it leans to the left. This steering action twists the toptube and downtube, storing energy that both limits travel and causes a return swing. Trail (caster) of the fork acts on the wheel to limit these excursions and return them toward center.

    To feel the gyroscopic forces involved in bicycle shimmy, take a front wheel, holding it by its axle in both hands, and give it a spin. Manually steering it from side to side generates strong tilting forces always at right angles to the input. These forces sustain shimmy and are the motions one uses to make quick steering maneuvers while riding no-hands, shifting the hips laterally while firmly seated. The same effect as when wheeling a bicycle wile holding it only by the saddle.

    Shimmy that concerns riders the most occurs with hands firmly on the bars and it is rider generated by muscular effect whose natural response is the same as the shimmy frequency, about that of Human shivering. Descending in cold weather can be difficult for this reason. The rider's "death grip" only enhances the incidence of shimmy in this situation. Loosely holding the bars between thumb and forefinger is a way of avoiding shimmy when cold.

     

  • 07-29-2009 3:29 AM In reply to

    Re: Front end wobble

    Thank you to both for your responses. I will check all the alignment. My saddle is very high, as is my centre of gravity, and I probably do start braking with peddles horizontal, so I will change that and keep one leg down, and try to rest my knee/thigh on the top tube. As for loosening my grip when it happens again, that is going to take some mental strength, I know it might be right, but suspect  I will have trouble convincing myself of it at the time.

  • 12-03-2009 10:35 AM In reply to

    Re: Front end wobble

     

    Well I finsihed the season off in the UK, still not fully solving the issue, I ended up having two major incidences of severe front end wobble, so bad that I and people watching marshals and other riders thought I was going off. I bought a new bottom bracket for the bike and to be just on the safe side got a very competent friend to watch me fit it. After fitting and test riding we started to discuss the front end wobble. He was one of the marshals that had seen it occur. We stripped the front end down and fitted the original stem which came with the bike, removing the adjustable one I had fitted to give me more clearance. Now the funny thing is neither of us could feel anything really wrong with the adjustable stem fitted, but it does feel better with the original Vision stem fitted, so roll on next season and I shall have to give it a few try outs before racing in anger.
  • 12-03-2009 11:16 AM In reply to

    Re: Front end wobble

    My thoughts go out to you bigbloke.....i have had this "speed wobble" ONLY once. Last year on a descent, 35-40mph, came to a super super smooth piece of tarmac, 10 yards onto it bars start to shake a little, then in a flash, the shaking is violent and the bike is swerving all over the road. Thought i was a gonner. Don't ask how, cos i don't know but i managed to stay on and tame it. Had to pull over and stop, and get myself together. Heart was pounding. SH*T me up BIG TIME.

    Researched it to death on the internet when i got home and now understand the phenomenom. Has not happened since.

    Only piece of advice i could give has already been posted. Clamp knees on top tube, or raise your backside up off the saddle. Failling that. PRAY there's a big bush or grass verge very handy !!

    2011 R5
    2011 Campagnolo Record 11
    Deda finishing kit
    2012 Fast Forward F6R Limited Edition's
  • 12-03-2009 2:58 PM In reply to

    Re: Front end wobble

     Yikes.  Sounds really grim.  I had a similar problem that ruined my one and only race of the season (not a "real" racer, obviously.  I do it so that I can justify spending so much money on a bicycle).  In my case, we narrowed the problem down to the 3T fork which was replaced under warranty.  Diagnosing the problem in my case was fairly straightforward but a little hairy: we simply induced the wobble, changed out the possible suspects (starting with the wheels) and kept at it until it went away.  In my case this involved freewheeling down a short but very steep hill with an equally steep uphill on the other side so that the need to brake was minimized.  Sure as clockwork, the bike would start to shimmy at 28mph and become truly terrifying by 34mph but by then the hill was over.  Once we replaced the fork with a borrowed Alpha Q the problem went away.  I now have a brand new 3T that works perfectly,so the problem was with the individual fork not the make generally.  If you can create the wobble under "controlled" (!!!!) conditions you should be able to nail down the problem with certainty.  That said, I hope never to do that again.  It is a gut churning sensation to start rolling down a hill knowing that your bike is going to try its damndest to throw you off.

  • 12-03-2009 10:55 PM In reply to

    Re: Front end wobble

    Interesting, after I went through eliminating all pieces my wobble remained UNTIL I swapped out the 3T for an Edge fork. Never had an issue since.

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